Terry Donnelly Podcast Episode 15

Joe Lenton: Welcome to the Focused Professional podcast. Today, we have Terry Donnelly with us. He is a Master Photographer with the Society of Photographers, a Rotolight Master of Light, a Sony ambassador. He’s won over 250 International Awards, and he was a fellow team member for Team GB for the World Photographic Cup. Great to have you here, Terry.

Terry Donnelly: Hey! Great! To be here! Nice to see you! Nice to hear from you, Joe.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, I appreciate you coming onto the podcast and having a little bit of a chat with us about your photography. It’s always been interesting to talk to you and at the conventions we often don’t get as much time as we might like, so thank you very much for taking some time out this morning.

Terry Donnelly: You’re welcome, Joe. Thank you for inviting me along.

Joe Lenton: Terry’s work I’ve been keeping an eye on for quite a few years, and he seems to be one of those that can switch genres and still do equally as well, which is exactly the opposite of what I was told when I was starting out, you know. Focus on one thing, get yourself sorted in one genre and just do that. Don’t try and do lots of things – you need to specialise. So, Terry, how have you made that work?

Terry Donnelly: Well, same as you, Joe. I’ve always been told, even, you know, even up to a few years ago. You’re okay shooting this, that and the other. But you’ve got to focus on one genre to get really good at it. And I’ve always resisted it, because to me it never made sense. Because there’s such a crossover between genres in terms of skill set that surely, if you shoot different genres and you’re using that crossover skill set that’s going to give you a better understanding and better knowledge. And you know of what you’re shooting, and that’s got to roll over into your favourite genre if you like. I don’t think you need to try to be an expert in all the genres. But you certainly should be shooting different genres, because it will strengthen that skill set.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, I think so as well. I mean thankfully, your work kind of gave me that little bit of inspiration and kind of permission if you like to do that myself, because so many people telling me, oh, no, you’ve got to specialize. You gotta pick your thing. Are you gonna do landscapes? Are you gonna do this? Are you gonna do the other? And I think that even once you have found perhaps a professional niche, still shooting those other genres just helps you to keep sharp on your camera skills, if nothing else.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, absolutely 100% agree. And you know, there’s so much of a rollover. If you’re shooting, practicing wildlife birds in flight, you know, that rolls over into sport. You’re using long lenses, you’re getting a better understanding of shutter speeds and the effects of shutter speed, and it does roll over into each other. But I would caveat that as well, Joe. In the terms that for a working professional, although you can shoot different genres. For marketing reasons, really, you should focus in on the type of work that you want to attract, really. So if you’re looking for work, and you know in the hotel industry or architectural work, that’s what you should show. And if you think about it, if you spring a leak in your house, you know, you need a plumber. You’re not gonna go online and necessarily look for an all round builder. You’re gonna look for a plumber. I think that’s the same in photography. So in terms of attracting the work what you you want to get, you should show the type of work what you wish to attract, and that does need to focus down, possibly into one genre. So that’s the only caveat. And I think that gets confused really about with doing that and shooting different genres.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely, I think for personal projects and to keep your skills sharp doing different things can be can be very helpful. Most of what I do tends to be product work, but at the same time in the summertime I might grab the macro lens and pop out and get some butterflies and bugs in the garden, you know.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, definitely, definitely. But if you look at wedding photography, you know, you’ve got documentary portraiture, fine art. You’ve got creative work, some macro , architectural considerations. If you’re shooting big, wide shots – landscape considerations, if you’re shooting outside. And if you look at the likes of you know Jerry Ghionis, Sanjay and Scott Johnson, they’re all different in their style. But you can say that they are shooting a multi-disciplinary photography. There’s so much in there what they do. But once you start really paying attention to it. And it’s the same for sport. You know, it’s documentary, media, can be portraiture, can be creative. You’ve got that architectural element as well. If you’re shooting wide pictures of inside of the stadium. It’s all – but all that skill set comes in from different genres to combine. And I think it’s very powerful. I think that 100% people should really force themselves to shoot different genres.

Joe Lenton: So what would you say you shoot most of these days professionally?

Terry Donnelly: Do you know what, Joe, it changes so much. I could have a heavy week of sport, and then I would roll on. I could have a heavy week of doing headshots. And you know, corporate identity work. It just changes week to week. And I couldn’t really tell you exactly what I shoot most of. It’s very, very fluid, and it’s not a bad thing, because if some work dies off slightly, for whatever reason for a change in season, a change in weather, anything can affect the type of work what I get in. Usually I can buffer that up and fill that in with other types of work as well. So for me personally, that works very well, being able to work across the different genres.

Joe Lenton: Yes, I was talking to Martina Warenfeldt, and she, of course, is known for her fine art portraiture, but she’s also sort of diversifying into business headshots and creating something which is sort of related to her skillset but slightly, slightly different, and enables her to go with the ebbs and flows of the market. So, having that extra genre available to you professionally, just keeps the income going, doesn’t it really?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, absolutely. I can’t see any reason why a photographer would not want to shoot different genres. And it’s great for learning as well. It’s great for personal development, some pushing yourself forward.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, I’d like to just have a quick chat about a couple of the genres that I know you do. So, sports and architecture, which, on the face of things, you could look at that and think you couldn’t get much more different. You know one tends to be on a tripod, slow, methodical, and the other one, it’s, you know, fast auto-focus. Because I mean, architectural work often is done with tilt-shift lenses where, of course, there is no autofocus and so it makes me wonder, then, do they have a totally separate skillset in your mind, or do you see much overlap between them?

Terry Donnelly: I suppose – photography is photography at the end of the day and we have a set standard of what we’re trying to achieve. So it needs to be technically good. We also need to capture, you know, that wow factor where we can as well. So on that basis, I think all photography genres are pretty much similar. Where it differs, I suppose, is in terms of maybe the equipment or the style of image what you’re shooting. And so you’re quite right, I suppose. Sport lives or dies by shutter speed, whether you look to freeze action, whether you’re looking to blur action. You know it’s all about the shutter speed with sport.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: And there’s certain nuances attached to that as well. So I suppose you’ve really got to understand your sport. You’ve got to be able to anticipate the sport because a lot of the breaks in play, you need to know where to go, so you can get yourself ready to capture them moments. Cause they are fleeting moments, and if you miss it, it’s gone. You can’t replay it.

Architectural photography is different in that it is more relaxed. You can maybe sit back and have a little bit more time. Be a little bit more considered. Both genres need a keen eye for detail, you know, without doubts. We’ve got to understand light properties and also have the ability to control. But I suppose the key difference would be Joe, for sporting events you’re very much in an uncontrolled environment, and you have to deal with whatever comes your way in terms of weather, your position you’re allocated to shoot, and the way the sun’s shining and the direction of the light, whether its harsh, whether you’ve got no light, whether its raining. Architecturally, you can be a little bit more considered, and perhaps hopefully have more of controlled environments.

Joe Lenton: So you have a place allocated for you when you’re in a stadium, normally? You don’t get to choose which end you’re going or whereabouts you’re going to position yourself?

Terry Donnelly: Very much depends on the stadium and also the level of the game. So, I mean, certainly for European games and Premiership games you will be allocated a position and it’s marked out. So when you get there you’ll get your badge, and it’ll have the mark on where your allocated slot is. For Rugby League that’s slightly different. You can go in. You can pretty much pick where you want to go within reason. It still needs to be behind the sticks. But you can, you know you can move around a bit more. You’ve got a bit more leeway to to select where you want to sit.

But on architectural photography as well. I just think that perhaps you just need that little bit of more understanding as you do in sport where you’d anticipate. But for architectural photography you need to be a little bit more aware, pay a little bit more attention to detail. And one of the biggest thing what you touched on was the ability to control lens distortion. So a tilt-shift lens is always preferable to use for for those type of shoots. You tend to see a lot of people shooting architectural work, and they just go for a wide angle on a fit in all type shot.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: But the distortion towards the lens edge just really gives that away.

Joe Lenton: It certainly does. Yes, yeah, yeah.

Terry Donnelly: You’ll you’ll see maybe a one meter door section grow to like it looks like 3 meters by the time it’s touching the edge of the lens.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, yeah.

Terry Donnelly: So, it’s a big thing. The tilt-shift lenses are brilliant for controlling that. And I’ll normally use a tilt-shift in those circumstances.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, you certainly won’t want them for a sports match – a bit too slow and awkward for that. But are you a rugby and football fan, then? Is that how you got into doing more of the rugby and the football, or are those the sports that you keenly follow?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I do follow football. Quite a lot of football. And certainly Rugby League cause up north it’s Rugby League down south it’s Rugby Union. So, we have a lot of teams up in the Northwest and in the Midlands, sorry in Yorkshire. 

Joe Lenton: Yeah, there’s a huge concentration around the Bradford/Leeds area, isn’t there? There’s loads of teams in there and Wigan, and so on, and St. Helens. And yeah.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, definitely. Well, certainly in the North West, St. Helens, Wigan, Leigh, Warrington, Salford. So, we’ve got 5 clubs in a really close nucleus within like maybe 45 min driving distance for me. So, they’re the ones I tend to concentrate on.

Joe Lenton: So, for people who are thinking of trying to get into sports photography, is it something where you need to be a member of something like the National Union of journalists? Is it something where you need to have a way of getting a pass in there? What’s the sort of basic way into doing that kind of thing? Would you start more grassroots level, and wait till you get noticed?

Terry Donnelly: I think you’ve got to start at grassroots, cause you’ve got to learn the trade. You’ve got to understand what’s required, and you’ve got to have a certain skill level. Now, my own personal view on this, Joe, is that to shoot Premier League football, Super League Rugby – I think you’re very privileged to be able to shoot that level of sport. I think it absolutely demands respect in terms of the quality of the image you put out. You can only really get that by starting at grassroots and learning, learning the ropes and growing yourself as  a sports photographer. Of course we have the other, the other element to it as well, but when you get into top flight sports it then becomes very much a pressure cooker in some respects, where you are required to file the images during match-play as well. So, while the game is on you will be editing images. You’ll be keyword and captioning and ftp-ing them off during gameplay. And that is a whole different skill level above being able to shoot. So, unless you’re really competent at shooting sports, you’re not gonna cope with the other side of it, either. I

In terms of accreditation. It’s usually a 2-step process. So, the first thing is that you would need to be accredited to, for instance, the Rugby Football League. So you have to apply to to them. And they want certain things like copies of your insurance, copies of X amounts of sales you’ve done in the previous season. And then they will issue a badge. Once you got the badge, you then have a secondary accreditation process where you have to apply to individual clubs to attend. So, if you want to attend St. Helens on a Saturday against, you know, Wigan, for argument’s sake. You need to apply to the host club and say, I’d like to attend. And these are my accreditation details, blah de blah blah blah! And then it’s up to them whether they let you in to the stadium. So, it’s a 2-step process similar for the football as well.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, so that you’ve really got to work at it and get that portfolio in. Get used to selling images to the local papers before you’re gonna work at any kind of serious national level, then?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, cause space is restricted. So if you’re not actively selling images, there’s no point in you being there. That’s the reason why they allow you access. They want to see their pictures going out in the you know the Red Socks, nationally, the local press – it’s all good for them, you know, its promoting the League as well.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, I think it’s important that people realize about that – getting the images out during the game as well. Because there’s, you know, social media. They want to put out an image straight after a goal of a player celebrating the goal, don’t they? It’s all very, very quick. You can’t be one of these photographers who goes. “well, I’ll shoot in RAW. I’ll take it home. I’ll have a little bit of a fiddle with it, and then I’ll send it off as a Jpeg.” Because you think well, by that time the papers have bought everything they want.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, it’s it’s it’s all over by then. Generally a rule of rule of form – if you photograph a goal and the you know the celebration straight after that, you’ll want to get them images filed off certainly within 2 minutes.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, it’s – that’s quick! So for you is that – do you prefer that kind of fast-paced environment? Because we were talking earlier about the architecture as being quite a bit more slow and methodical. Do you prefer one over the other, or do you just enjoy both?

Terry Donnelly: I enjoy both, really, Joe. You know there’s nothing like the adrenaline rush at a really big football match. You know, that can be really exciting. But, like equally, you know, I enjoy being really particular. I’ve been called particular quite a few times by people. Just fussing an image to get it just absolutely the best it can be before I press the shutter. You know I enjoy that side of it as well. So yeah, I enjoy both – I just love taking pictures, Joe. I suppose the bottom line is. And I think that 99% of us get into photography because we enjoy it and that’s never left me. I still look forward to going out and doing the next shoot, whatever it is. It’s just yeah – just enjoy it so much.

Joe Lenton: So you’re not somebody who relies on their own personal projects to keep the enjoyment? You actually get the enjoyment from the the paid jobs as well?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, yeah, I always try to – I mean, personal projects have been really useful for me over the years, and for the last probably the last 18 months I’ve not really done any. But I am returning to it. I’ve got one which I’m about to start, which is going to be something a bit different.

Joe Lenton: I don’t doubt that. Certainly, looking back at your various fellowship panels, you know we’ve got London underground. We’ve got flying squirrels. We’ve got sort of composites of rather crazy looking people in rather weird looking backgrounds. There’s an awful lot of different things going on there!

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, well, I think you’ve just gotta go with whatever you enjoy at that time, Joe. And sometimes I just get an idea in my mind, and I’ll just try to see if I can convert that into reality in front of the camera. But yeah, personal projects are so powerful they really are. If you think of – you can think of them really as a self-development training exercise if you like and I think they can give you skills and improve your skills – the existing skillset so much. You know, all our photography is about problem solving. You know, we’re presented with a particular problem where we haven’t got enough light, or we don’t know how to perhaps get a narrative into an image, or whatever it is. But shooting personal projects you can spend your time on trying different solutions and see what works best, and that naturally rolls across. Once you accomplish that, or learn how to achieve something that will always be there for you, you can always call back on that from your skillset. So, I think they’re really really powerful. I’d recommend that everybody, you know, push themselves a little bit to get involved in personal projects.

Joe Lenton: Definitely, I’d certainly echo that sentiment. So if we look at one of your recent projects, so the fellowship panel that you did of the squirrels in the garden – how did that emerge? Was it because you happen to have access to them? Was it something that you were already passionate about? Could you tell us a little bit about how you got into doing that as a project?

Terry Donnelly: Oh, Joe, how long have you got on this podcast?! I’ll try and be concise with this. I’d say both really. I am very pro animal rights. And you know, that’s that’s a big part. Any living animal, wildlife – yeah, I think we’ve got to treat them with the utmost respect, and look after them where we can. But also – we moved house in 2,016, and the house what we moved to has a colony of red squirrels living between the gardens and the mature trees. They would drop into the garden every now and again. So I set myself a task really a plan to try and get better pictures of them. Cause they were always quite hidden in the tree canopy, or very skittish, you know. If they saw any movement they were away. They’re very difficult to photograph in a rural location. And as you can imagine people have got – one of 4 households have got a cat.

Joe Lenton: Ah, yeah.

Terry Donnelly: So you know, they’ve got a predator not too far away. People have dogs. So they don’t like to stick around too much. So I set about bringing them into the garden and I’ve done loads of presentations of how we achieved this, but it took me quite a long time. And I built a framework in the end. I have them coming onto frames, interacting with different objects – musical instruments, sitting in cars. Built an assault course for them. So I could photograph them jumping through the air. And that was the big thing. But I’ll tell you what happened, Joe. As I got more into the species itself I learnt more and more about them and – realisation, really just how at risk they are in terms of extinction in England. Current estimates are 35,000 red squirrels left in England. 

Joe Lenton: I’ve never seen one in the wild in the UK. I’ve never actually seen one. I’ve only ever seen it in captivity or in Europe, in Germany. I’ve never, never seen a red squirrel. I see plenty of greys, but I’ve never seen a red squirrel here.

Terry Donnelly:  Yeah, it’s shameful, Joe, it really is. We’ve gone from like over 4 million. We’re down to 35,000. And when you look at the reasons why, we’ve got habitat change. You know, with houses getting built and habitats getting destroyed. Roadkill certainly in, you know, locations where I live. But the biggest killer to them is squirrel pox, which is carried by the grey squirrel. Grey squirrels carry that virus, and it has no ill effect on the grey squirrel. But it’s deadly to a red, and it will literally – it’ll kill a red squirrel within 2 weeks and it’s a cruel – it’s a painful death. And it will run right through a colony. I lost a colony of red squirrels actually in November. I lost about 18 of them over a 3 week period, through squirrel pox.

Joe Lenton: Wow!

Terry Donnelly:  Yes.

Joe Lenton: It’s quite something.

Terry Donnelly: It’s deadly. So, I’ve been on a bit of a campaign with it, really, raising awareness. And we’ve done that we’ve featured on BBC news, ITV news, and we’ve been on ITV national broadcasts. At the request of the Wildlife Trust, I filmed with BBC Earth 18 months ago. So that’s gone out now on their Youtube. I’ve done national newspaper campaigns. All with looking to raise awareness about the dangers of the grey squirrel in terms of the damage they do to the ecological system. That they’re actually – not many people are aware of this, but the grey squirrel is listed in the top 10 most damaging non-native, invasive species in the world. Not in England. In the world.

Joe Lenton: That’s really quite something. And I guess with the photography you were doing you probably got to understand the behaviour of the squirrels that little bit better than just the casual observer. Because you’re spending that bit more time with them and creating an environment and testing. I guess you’re when you were putting the environment together to draw them into the garden there were probably some things that worked, some things that didn’t. And you get to know and understand, you know your subject, from a photographic point of view there as well.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, it is Joe. I mean, it’s all – wildlife photography is all about observing behaviour, learning the behaviour of the animal, and then influencing the behaviour of the animal. But I’ve got to know them quite well. Probably a little bit too geeky to be honest.

Joe Lenton: Can you be too geeky? I like geeky. I think geeky is good.

Terry Donnelly: So, 6 main personality traits on the red squirrel. They can be left-handed or right-handed. There’s just so much about them, and each one is an individual, and it’s – each one has got its own, you know, its own story, its own life. And it’s just so sad to be losing them, it really is. But we we’ll keep on. I mean I’ve been in touch with HRH King Charles as well over it. I’ve made a load of suggestions to him, cause I did an awful lot of work, particularly during the lockdown. He very kindly wrote back to me, and he’s given me a commitment to do what he can when he can. So you know photography is fantastic for breaking down barriers. It will open doors and allow you to reach people who you would never ever come in touch with.  I’ll cut short on the red squirrel story because you’ll be on til tonight, and I’ll still be rambling on about them.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, it’s great that things come out of a passion like that, and that also the images have got that kind of educational sort of documentary kind of value to them. As difficult as though they might be to see unwell animals, you think it’s part of the the role of a photographer is that sort of persuasion. So it’s like with advertising images. You’re there to try and make someone want something. For whatever reason, you know, if it’s a beer, you want to make them feel thirsty and want to drink it. So as photographers, we can influence people’s emotions, we can influence what people do, how they react. And there are various different ways of doing it. And you’ve found a particular way there, partly with the red squirrels, but also with the Air Ambulance as well.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think we’re very privileged as photographers these days, Joe. I mean the equipment, what we have access to is just unbelievable. You would never have thought 10 years ago, you know, the quality of the cameras these days, and you know the feature sets they have on them – absolutely amazing what we can do. And we’re also privileged in this timeframe what we live in as well for the opportunities we get. And I think  everybody has, you know, a duty really to pay back where they can, and to make a difference with their photography. You know whether that’s – it doesn’t matter what level it’s at. But ,if we can make a difference to somebody’s life, you know, or to wildlife by taking some pictures, I think 100% that’s what we should be looking to do. And you know as you rightly say it’s important as well. We can effect the change through taking pictures as crazy as that may sound, but we really can.

Joe Lenton: yeah, I think sometimes you get these arguments among photographers about doing work sort of for free and that. And I think that the way I tend to look at it is, if you’ve got something you’re passionate about that you want people to know about, that you want to share the message about often there isn’t the money for these organizations to do that. So you can actually choose to play your part by doing the pictures. I think there’s a very big difference between that and doing it for free in order to try and get some exposure to try and get your foot in the door. I think that’s a very different kind of use of your time, really.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I think giving back is something we should all do, and that is certainly different from somebody, perhaps, who goes into a professional environment and starts causing havoc with pricing, shall we say?! 

Joe Lenton: Yes.

Terry Donnelly: And that’s completely different. And I think, you know, in a professional environment, you’ve got to respect yourself. You’ve got to respect the work, and you’ve got to respect your clients as well. You must charge accordingly, for that type of work. And the issue is that if you don’t then that work will soon disappear from a chargeable point of view for everyone. So, you know, they have to be about – everything what you do does have a value. Somebody wants to use it so it has a value as well. So you should always charge accordingly.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. Photographers need to help maintain their own industry, really there. And just, you know, cutting off your nose to spite your face if you’re not careful, I think.

Terry Donnelly: Absolutely spot on Joe.

Joe Lenton: So whether that comes down to the actual sort of shoot fee or licensing things, it’s – sometimes people are tempted to – they’ll get contacted by somebody who wants to publish a book, or somebody who wants to do something in a magazine. “Oh, can I have your image?” And you think, you know, make sure you do think about a licensing fee for those things. Don’t just go,  “oh, I get to be in that magazine or that newspaper! Here, have it!”

Terry Donnelly: Yeah.

Joe Lenton: All too often people do.

Terry Donnelly:  Yeah, I don’t do it, Joe. Yeah, I just won’t do it. I mean, I got contacted not long ago. Somebody wanted to use a series of images. So, we asked them what the budget was, and he said, “oh, we haven’t got a budget we’re only a small company.” Thank you. Oh, well, you’ll you’ll have to find a budget. So they found a budget and I worked out a deal for them. And they still didn’t buy it. They just wanted 3 images. But I’m sure somebody somewhere else will oblige them.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, that’s sometimes the problem, isn’t it? There’s always somebody that will. But yeah, there we go! That’s another one we could talk about till the cows come home, I think, unfortunately.

Terry Donnelly: We could be here all week.

Joe Lenton: So you clearly somebody who’s quite passionate about your photography and you got passionate values in various areas of your life. When you’re actually running your photography business, would you say you bring your values into that? Is that something that you feel you can do when you’re running a business – a values-based business?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I think you’ve got to be – you’ve got to keep your values, and you’ve got to keep your standards in business. I try to treat every single job as if the client is, you know, a close member of the family or a close friend, and I make sure they’re well looked after. Fully understand the brief. I never try to upsell. That’s something I always avoid doing. I’ll always make sure I give a clear quotation, and if it’s accepted, if I’ve made a mistake – well, I did make a mistake not long ago, actually. I ended up doing probably 30% more work than I’d quoted for. But when I look back at it, it was down to me. So I just swallowed that myself and, you know, I didn’t bother the client over it. But I think your standards – you have to be absolutely upfront and honest with everything what you do, and do your absolute best for the clients, you know, and I think that’s the only way to do it. I won’t mention the building – the building fraternity who tends to work slightly differently!  You’ve just got to be straight with people, Joe. You’ve got to be right with them. And if you’re alright with other people then chances are they’ll come back and are right with you as well.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, yeah, I think so, too. So what would you say motivates you? As a business photographer as a commercial sort of photographer, what is it about the job that makes you keep doing it? Is it the enjoyment of it? Or, you know, are you motivated by the money? Or what sort of things get you out of bed in the morning?

Terry Donnelly: Love of photography, Joe. First and foremost, I love doing it. I love a challenge. I suffer with the imposter syndrome a lot of the time. And I love doing things what I think I can’t do. So, it’s that challenge. It’s going out, going on location, maybe in a new environment. Work on the solution as to what we’re gonna do, how we’re gonna do it. You know, making sure we’re covering the brief and I just love all that part of it. And then when you get over the obstacles and you start shooting, and the images are coming into the camera, and you’re happy with them, there’s no better feeling, in my opinion. And that’s first and foremost what drives me. Obviously, the financial part of that is important as well. But I would say that is – I don’t jump out of bed in the morning saying, you know, “oh, I’m gonna get this money today or that money.” I jump out of bed in the moment and go, “great, we’ve got to photograph this today!” And I can’t wait to get there.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: I’m gonna try different angles, and maybe I’ll light it slightly differently this time. It’s all that part of it drives me.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, I suppose you know you’ve got a huge number of different awards and qualifications and things like that as well. Is that something which is an important part of your motivation? I mean for me sometimes it’s actually kind of part of trying to keep the imposter syndrome at bay. I almost feel that need for some kind of validation that I can still do it. Yeah, which is kind of sad, in a way, but that’s part of it for me.

Terry Donnelly: Totally agree with you. I love bashing the imposter syndrome over the head with an award. “Now get away from me!” And I need structure, Joe. I love having structure and competitions give me structure. So the monthly competitions with the Societies, I love entering those. And I know at the end of the month I’ve got to sit down, I’ve gotta have a look through what I shot that month. See what I think is of a standard that’s worthy of an entry. And then look at the image again critically. Look from a judge’s perspective. Is there any distractions in there? Is there anything I’ve missed? And I love that structure part of it. But certainly on awards, if somebody comes back to you and says, “oh, you’ve got a HC this month.” And you’re like, “amazing!” Somebody’s bought in to, you know, the vision and the image what you supplied. And it’s all verification really to say, yeah, you’re on the right path. And that’s why I think competitions are so important. Self projects are a bit like that as well because – but with a self project, you haven’t got somebody giving you that confirmation at the end of it only yourself. But I think competition’s really, really important. And you know the job what Terrie Jones does with the Societies – it’s it really is on another level. And –

Joe Lenton: Agree, yeah.

Terry Donnelly: I always encourage people to be in them competitions. Always. And you never – if you think about it this way, Joe – you’re never in competition with anybody else. When you enter like a, you know, a photography competition. You’re only in competition with yourself to do better than what you did the previous month.

Joe Lenton: Hmm. Yeah, I think that’s one of the good things about having awards that are set at like effectively a particular score, a standard. It’s not that – if you meet that standard, it’s not that you you might get pushed off if there are too many others. If everybody meets that standard, then everybody gets the you know the award. If only one person meets the highly commended, and there might be no golds that month, that’s just how it is. The standard is there. The benchmark is there, and it’s clear what you’re aiming for. It’s not sort of this month you’re fifth or tenth or twenty-fifth, or something like that. It is much, much clearer to understand the standard, I think.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I agree. And and that’s important, as well, you know. If you’re judging to or you’re being judged against a set standard, then you know roughly where you are. Obviously, that changes. You know a convention where images start going up against each other then in the finals to see who’s getting the top spot. But having that standard to be judged against, I think, you know, that’s really good that. And as you quite rightly say, if you were coming 12th or 15th, you know, and that changed on how many people entered that month it wouldn’t have the same credibility, in my opinion of what it is.

Joe Lenton: So, you’ve also trained as a judge, and done quite a lot of judging as well with the Societies and elsewhere, too. How do you think that’s changed you as a photographer?

Terry Donnelly: I think it’s given me a much keener eye, and has also given me additional exposure to different genres and different levels of photography which you know you may not have seen previous if you wasn’t judging. You know and it’s – I think it makes a huge difference, understanding the process. Its been nice. My judging started back in 2012. I started there with the Lancashire and the Cheshire Photographic Union, which is the umbrella for all the Camera Clubs on the Northwest – umbrella society. I went through their judging school, if you like. And then I was a junior judge for a while until I was upgraded. And then I got listed on the PAGB Judging list, which is the UK umbrella over all the different regions. So that’s the highest level of children in that arena. And then I think it – gosh how long ago it was – I did the Societies one with Terrie. I mean that was different in a lot of ways, but different in a good way if that makes sense. And it was very, very rigorous. I learned an awful lot at the judging school. And again, I’d recommend anyone to do that if they’re interested in becoming a judge, or just want to understand more how people assess images. And I think it was – oh, it’s here actually, I made a note. March 2019 I attended the Juding school. Wow! 5 years already. That’s unbelievable. How quick the time goes! But I’ve enjoyed the Societies judging. I’m actively judging in the monthlies. I also do assessments of qualification panels. And obviously at convention it’s always, you know, a really great event to be involved in and a privilege, to be involved in also. Well tightly controlled by Terrie, you know she manages the standard so well in that and she’s probably well, she is the most tuned in person in terms of judging and controlling judges I’ve ever come across. She does an amazing job. It’s a privilege to be involved in that, Joe.

Joe Lenton: I think you can know that the standards are maintained well. It’s not like you’ve got to worry about sort of qualification creep or something. Oh, it’s becoming easier or anything like that. It’s, you know, that you get a qualification, and it’s got lasting value.

Terry Donnelly: And if you can earn a qualification, Joe, or if you can win, you know, win an award in the monthlies or at the convention, you’ve earned that. You know you should be really proud of the fact that you’ve achieved that. Because you know, a lot of people, you know, don’t get to actually do that. So you’ve worked hard. You’ve achieved it, you own it, and you should be proud of it.

Joe Lenton: Definitely. Yeah, and it’s something that can then lead on to – potentially with some clients, it can be a reassurance when they book you when they can see that you’ve got various qualifications when you’ve won awards, and particularly in your case, I guess it’s also led on to becoming like a brand ambassador for one or 2 companies. So what actually is a brand ambassador? What do you actually have to do? I suppose a lot of people see that see them about, but they don’t necessarily know know what it involves.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah. So, being an ambassador, again, it’s an absolute privilege, and, you know, not something to take for granted. But it’s a multi-skilled role, really. You’re there to support the brand. And you do that in various ways. You could be supplying images for articles, for product launches. I mean, one of the most exciting things I get to do is I get equipment pre-release. And I get to play with it before anybody even knows it’s coming out, and that’s always big fun that.

Joe Lenton: I can imagine. But I suppose the issue you’ve got there is that you haven’t actually got the RAW processing capabilities in some of your image software because it’s so new.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, that’s right. So, in that instance, what I would do is I was shooting Jpeg and RAW. And then I mean the Jpegs out of the cameras these days, just, you know, they’re outstanding, they really are. And then I’d maybe look at the RAWs later on as the raw process and software becomes available. But its’ a multi-skilled role, you know, attending trade events – TPS. Being able to speak about the equipment, about your photography. It’s – really is an honorary job to be able to do that. And unbelievably I’ve been doing it with Sony since 2017.

Joe Lenton: Wow!

Terry Donnelly: I think that’s quite a long stretch. Rotolilght was 2017 as well and Fotospeed. It came on a bit later with Fotospeed. But 3 great brands. And they make, you know, they have great products and, yeah. It’s as I say, it’s a privilege really to be able to be involved with them at that level.

Joe Lenton: I suppose, at these photography shows and that you’re basically sort of dashing between one stand and another and don’t get to see much else of what’s going on, then, representing your various companies like that.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, it can be. I was ping-ponging between Sony and Rotolight at TPS this year. But its great fun and keeps you busy. You don’t get to see much of the show, to be honest when you’re doing that.

Joe Lenton: No.

Terry Donnelly: But it, you know, it is what it is at the end of the day. And it’s something I enjoy doing -meeting people advising people. And I can advise people from a non-sales point of view. So, if somebody comes to me and they say, “oh, thinking of getting this camera,” and that. I’ll sit them down and say,  “what are your priorities? What are you looking for? What are your benefits?” And then you can show them images, and you can share with them the way you do things. I mean, quite commonly I’ll share my camera settings as well. I’ll just put it on a – download it onto an SD card and send it to people. So they can work – set the cameras with the same as me, and work the same way as me for a while, till they get into the system, and then, you know, they can start customizing their own workflow from there on in. I enjoy that part of it. It’s not just from a sales point of view as some people have got the kit already, and perhaps not getting the best out of it.

I had one person, actually, only last week who was having problems with focus. That was just – it was one setting on the camera that he’d overlooked. So, it’s it’s great to be able to get people up to speed with the kit. Same with the lighting, you know. And the prints.

Joe Lenton: Definitely, and sometimes when you’re teaching it is just a really small thing – I did a beginners workshop for a group a few years back. And you know, within the first 5 minutes someone said, “oh, great! That’s it. I’ve got what I need” almost. And it was something it was, you wouldn’t believe it – it was the little diopter wheel.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I would believe it.

Joe Lenton: So they were looking there. They say I got this camera, but every time I look through everything’s all blurry, and sometimes it seems to be okay when you look at the actual photo, and sometimes it’s not. And then you say, well, just rotate that wheel round there a little bit. “Oh! Fantastic!” And for them – they were so enthused to go out and then take photos for the rest of the session, just for one little thing. And it’s really nice when you’ve got those moments of – with people who are new to the kit with people who are new to various techniques, it’s lovely seeing them being able to enjoy themselves and open up a new world of creativity.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, absolutely. And you’re quite right. It’s often the small things which, you know, they’ve overlooked or they’ve not realized. But I think any event, Joe, if somebody, you know, if  I run an event, and if there’s 20 people on it, if one person gets one thing out of that, I’m happy. Because it can completely change their photography.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: You know, a couple of years back at TPS – I’ll give you 2 examples. We had one guy who came, who was visually impaired. He was loosing – he said he was packing in photography because of this and that and I set his camera up for him. You know, absolutely failsafe how the focus will – using all the focus points and explained the way the system works. You know, and he left happy, you know. Spent near enough an hour with that guy. Another chap had had a stroke and was struggling holding the camera. So we went through the various different options. And just spending a little bit of time with somebody – it can totally change their photography and their enjoyment ongoing. So you invest a little bit of time with somebody – long term they’re getting so much more enjoyment from it. I really really enjoy that type of  issue – not an issue – but that type of challenge, really, you know. Helping people, I think, is what, as I mentioned before something we all should do whenever we can. But yeah, I absolutely love that. When we get somebody coming in with an issue we’ll be sending them away happy. It’s a great feeling.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, lift everybody up doing that kind of thing. You feel great for being able to help somebody, and the other person is re-enthused for their hobby, and so on. I think for me the training and also the judging, giving back like that. It’s like when you get to write a report on somebody’s qualification, for example, getting to give them that kind of detailed feedback. It’s it really is – it’s actually really quite satisfying, you know. It’s not a chore by any means.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, definitely. I agree. I mean, I’m lucky to be involved in the mentoring as well with the Societies, and you know it’s – the first report there’s usually a fair bit in it, shall we say. For some people.

Joe Lenton: Yes.

Terry Donnelly: In a in a nice way, though, you know, directing them. There’s nothing better than seeing a second mentoring request come in from the same person, and you see that they’ve rolled in what you’ve been saying to them into the photography. As you quite rightly say it’s so satisfying for that. It makes all the difference. Makes all the hard work doing the reports worthwhile.

Joe Lenton: it certainly does. Yeah. So, you’ve been involved in all sorts of different aspects of the photography industry, do you – and all the awards and things you won, and qualifications, and so on – do you still have any particular ambitions for your photography? Any landmarks you want to reach?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I do, actually. One of the ones I’ve got – well, I’ve got a few, Joe. I won’t share them all here. Certainly, in terms – cos we’re both involved with the Societies – one of my ambitions is to win that competition outright at convention. That is something I would just love to do, and I’ve always wanted to do it. I’ve come close a few times. I came second overall in 2016.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: And then I came third overall in 2020.

Joe Lenton: Oh, yeah, it’s close.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah. Now, that’s a 4 year cycle that – I might be lucky this year. But I don’t think so. But yeah, I’ve always got targets. I think if you don’t have targets you’ll slide backwards. I’ve always things what I want to achieve. And there’s certain images I want to achieve as well. Certainly, in terms of sport which I’ve I’ve got in my mind, and I know they’re there for me, but they’ll only happen when external conditions align. So yeah, 100% I’ve got, I’ve got a lot of stuff which I want to achieve. But the Society one is one definitely. I’ve not enjoyed the same level of success I’ve had previously. Certainly over the last I’d say 18 months or so, about 18 months or so. But yeah, I need to up me game a little bit if I’m going to do that.

Joe Lenton: We’ve got all these Swedes and all these Aussies coming in. I mean, they’re taking all the awards! The Brits are going to have to fight back.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, we are. We’re gonna have to up our game. But I suppose, like getting back to your question – ambitions and photography stuff. The biggest one and the most important one which I’ve got is to have an effect in certain areas. Certainly in red squirrel conservation and also in the air ambulance world as well. You know that that’s the most important factor for me. But, you know, making the occasional great picture and being involved taking pictures is all well and good. But if you can affect a cause for the betterment of other people, or, you know, for wildlife, I think that is that’s my biggest ambition. That’s where I’d really like to – really, really like to be and to push forward for. Wildlife doesn’t have a voice, you know, we’ve got to speak for them. Words can only go so far – we can do much more with pictures. We can reach out more. If I can help with the funding requirements of the ambulance services as well. That’s massive, and they’re my two ambitions which are ongoing. For sure. Which are worth more to me than any award, or you know, any source of success in other areas. But that’s my main thing, really. They’re my ambitions.

Joe Lenton: Yeah. So with the – when you’re working with the air ambulance how does that work? Do you do you kind of tag along, and you figure out your way of telling the story? Or do they give you a brief that they want you to follow

Terry Donnelly: Normally they will give me a shot list of ideas which is not strict. They just say we’d actually like to have this type of image cause we don’t have it at the moment. Now. I was there last week. On the shot list I think there was about 9 or 10 shots on the list, which I just rolled into what I was doing. But I’ve got a certain level of trust between us, so they pretty much let me go at it, really. I mean this last photo essay, it was about highlighting the use of critical care doctors now on the crews more and more. So 40% of the missions attended have a critical care doctor with them. That has additional costs. Also, fuel has had a massive impact on the cost of the service. And currently, Joe, it costs 4.5 million pounds to run the service each year.

Joe Lenton: Is that the one in your area? That’s not nationally, presumably? That’s then multiplied up around the country as well, is it?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah. Well, this is in Wiltshire. So I’m I’m working with Wiltshire air ambulance at the moment. So, for just for that one region, Wiltshire, the county, 4.5 million to run the service. That is a huge amount of money, an eye-watering amount of money. That equates to over 12,000 pounds per day.

Joe Lenton: That’s huge, isn’t it? And, as I say, you’ve got this multiplied across the country in so many different ways. And it’s one of those things where you hope you’ll never need to rely on it. But when you do, boy, does it make a difference to people. I mean, they’re saving lives, aren’t they?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, makes a huge difference. I mean, this quarter. They had 329 missions over the first 3 months. Now we break that down that equates to £3,400 per mission. Now, when we look at the top line 4.5 million, you know, it’s a huge amount of money, but when you break it down to 3,400 per mission, you know, that’s less than 3 and a half grand to go and save somebody’s life. Somebody’s mum, somebody’s dad, daughter, son – it’s money well spent. All the air ambulances across the country, they don’t receive any direct funding from the government. So they have to raise the money themselves. They all have a charity arm and that comes from donations running their own lottery and charity shops, people doing events. But that money has to be kept coming in, and part of what I do with them is to highlight that funding need. And it’s important because as people, we get used to things. You know, we get used to having Internet. We get used to having electricity, and it all gets took for granted. We see, maybe an air ambulance flying above. And we just think it just happens. But it doesn’t. It needs to be funded, and it needs to be supported. And that’s what my photo essays primarily are for to do that.

Joe Lenton: Yeah with those kind of services it’s so important that the the visuals are professional, because it’s the way our minds work. When we look at sort of amateur sort of snaps of things in a context like that for us to then consider giving reasonable amounts of money to a charity. It’s like with with when we shop. If the images don’t look quite right, there’s that kind of dissonance in our mind that makes us wonder, “is it worth it? Is it not?” So, for charities that do those jobs, they rely on having good images. And it’s one of those things where, if you’ve got a photographer who’s passionate about it and you can provide that for them. It makes a huge difference when they’re turning up at a fair, and they’ve got a big print of a quality image behind them, not just a grubby little flyer with a few things that someone took on their mobile. I mean the takings that they’re likely to get by comparison are gonna be just just chalk and cheese, aren’t they?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, definitely. A lot of the stuff, Joe. You know it’s exciting as well. I mean some of them go out on 48 sheet billboards, backs of buses. You’ll be amazed where they end up the images and it’s great to see them being used as well. But they’ve got to be used in context. And in that environment you’ve got to be careful. You’ve got to be careful what you show and what you don’t show. More importantly, you know you’ve got to show the good side of the service. I know some publications would love to get the hands on images which are less visually attractive, shall we say? So you you’ve got to be careful what you’re showing. Patient confidentiality has got to be top of the list as well. 

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: You’ve got to protect them in all instances. I mean everything that I shoot with air ambulance has to actually go back to them to be approved before publication. They also have to get further – further permissions for anybody involved. And certainly the, you, know the Southwest ambulance Trust. And you know any people, that are in the pictures as well. So it’s all protected, and it’s all done in the absolute best possible way we can do it.

Joe Lenton: Oh, the yeah, the ethics of these things are are so important. You don’t want to be taking advantage of some poor soul who’s, you know, comatose in the back of the helicopter being rushed off to try and save their life? I think you know those would be situations where you might think, yeah, this is a great story. But, that’s where you need to exercise that little bit of judgment and realise that not everything needs to be photographed.

Terry Donnelly: I’ve been involved with air ambulance services Joe would you believe for 20 years, now. Going back right back to 2004, I was first introduced to Northwest Air Ambulance, CEO, and by the sales staff of Autotrader of all people.

Joe Lenton: Really?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah. And it was an event which was run in Liverpool. So we were putting a motor show together, and one of our sponsors was Autotrader, and they came to me, and they said, Look, Fiat have given us a car which we’re going to raffle and raise funds for the North West Air Ambulance, and we’d like you to be our partner in that. So, we did all like the marketing for it. We helped them with ticket sales, and that was my first introduction to an air ambulance service, and then from there I started doing events for them, shooting brochure work and it just rolled on and on and on, and Wiltshire air ambulance are the service I’ve been working with for 5 years now, and that’s gone really quick as well. So we did an initial photo essay with them. Then I did a big Covid one during Covid cos I’m a UK Press card holder I was allowed to go out and still work. Although there wasn’t much work about. So during lockdown if I got pulled up I produced my card, you know. Absolutely fine. You’re entitled to be out. And one of the things it was covering a lot was the NHS foundation, all the hospitals and stuff. And the thought just crossed my mind. I thought, what are the air ambulances doing? So I got in touch with air ambulance in Wiltshire. I had a good chat with them. Their landscape of funding had totally changed. You know the charity shops couldn’t open. They didn’t have people doing sky dives or all these activities. So they were under a bit of pressure, and then also their own operating procedures had changed, they had to fit a Perspex panel in the helicopter to keep the cockpit separate from the patients area in the back.

Joe Lenton: Oh, that’s awkward.

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, they were wearing masks and so many different procedures they were doing. So I said to them, look, I think we should do a photo essay and get this out because people don’t know what you’re doing. Their landscape of calls had changed as well. They’d be getting a lot more accidents in the home, obviously, because everyone’s at home. RTAs had dropped because nobody was going out. So went down there I spent – I self-isolated for a week before I went to see them and then I attended the air base and got all the Covid checks done by one of the doctors, and it was clear to go. So we entered air side then and then I stayed air side for 3 days, I actually slept on the site to try and minimize, bringing any infection in.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: We shot a lot of stuff, and it was great, and it turned out in retrospect that I was the only person only photographer the flew and worked with an air ambulance service during Covid times. And that work now stands testament to what those folks went through. For future generations, you know. In 10 years, 20 years, when people want to look back they’ve got a good reference of what took place. And obviously we put the pictures out as well. They went out into the press, and were used quite extensively. And certainly in terms of fundraising, Joe, you might think that you, you know, the big national papers are the ones what you go for. But in reality it’s the local press that you want, because that is your that was your fundraising area.

Joe Lenton: Local press relate to local stories, don’t they? So you know, if a local person has had their life saved, you know they’re 5 miles down the road from you. It has that much more impact often than thinking, oh, yeah, someone at the other end of the country. And it’s it just shows how, as photographers, we are storytellers, and that we, if we have a passion, then we can help them with telling their story like that. And these photo essays that you’ve done have been your way of being able to give give back with that. So how can people actually see some of these photo essays that you’ve done? Where’s the best places to to go and look?

Terry Donnelly: I’ve got some online on my website www.terrydonnelly.co.uk I should do better with that, though, I should put more content on and keep it more updated. Certainly a Google search “air ambulance, Terry Donnelly”. You’ll you’ll see them, you know still online in press and online news agencies. I’d certainly come and see. Come to an event. I’m actually just gonna put a submission into attend convention actually. And we’re going to be covering air ambulance work. From terms of shoot, working with them, shooting with them, on what’s entailed and the reasons why we, you know, we do what we do. And so that might be something that anyone going to convention in January, might like to come to attend to.

Joe Lenton: Yeah.

Terry Donnelly: It’s really important, Joe. We’ll just finish on the ambulance by saying, with these critical care doctors on board now on the crews. When you think back, I don’t know if you’re aware of where the ambulance actually originated from? They started life working with the police and the police helicopters. When the police helicopters thought it would be a good idea to occasionally have a paramedic on board with them when they’re going out to road traffic accidents, etc.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, right.

Terry Donnelly: They started doing that service. And then it grew and grew. And eventually, you know, somebody said, well we need our own service, really, because working with the police is okay, but it’s quite constricting. Where if they’ve got their own ambulance service, you know, they can be flying out to some missions themselves, and that’s where it came from, or where it grew. And quite early on it, was all about stabilizing the patients and getting them to hospital, to an ER room as soon as they can. But with bringing on the critical care doctors now on board, it actually means that critical care Doctor can give full ER room medical attention actually on site wherever they are, whether it’s somebody’s house, the side of a road, wherever it will be. They’re actually bringing the ER to the patient and getting the patient further down the care line. Plus those first moments – the first minutes are the most important in saving somebody. And it’s a great thing what they do. And they’re really pushing the envelope with this to, you know, make that service the best it can be for people.

Joe Lenton: Is this something you put on your social media channels at all? Is that something that people can follow on there?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah, I’m a bit hit and miss on social. I tend to have little forays of activity. And then I don’t go on for a short while. But yes, certainly the socials are TerryDonnelly01 on Instagram and Twitter. I just found the socials taking me a lot of time to do, Joe, and sometimes I just don’t have the time to do it.

Joe Lenton: Tell me about it. Yes, quite right. I think it’s nice for people to be able to follow your work, and they’ve got places now that they can go to to follow up on these stories and things. So remind us of your website. You’ve got a personal website and a commercial one, haven’t you?

Terry Donnelly: Yeah. So the personal website is terrydonnelly.co.uk. And as I mentioned earlier, I’ve split the architectural work away from that. And that’s got its own dedicated website, which is terrydonnelly.com and as I say, social is Terry Donnelly 0 1. And that’s it, really, Joe, that’s my online presence.

Joe Lenton: Yeah, that’s absolutely fine. Yeah. So if our listeners would like to find out anymore and see some of Terry’s imagery, please do go and take a look at that. And hopefully, this has helped to sort of fire up your interest in your own passion, to see how you could contribute what you could do as a photographer to tell somebody’s story in a positive way. So it’s been really interesting having you on as a guest, Terry. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your work with the listeners. It’s really appreciated. Thank you.

Terry Donnelly: No, it’s been great to be on, Joe. Thank you very much for inviting me along.

Joe Lenton: And thank you, everybody for listening. This is the Focused Professional podcast

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