Martina Wärenfeldt – Special Guest – Podcast Episode 10

Martina Wärenfeldt FSWPP, Icon Double Master, Canon Ambassador joins us for an exclusive interview. She is a world class fine art portrait photographer and has won numerous awards and titles for her work. Martina is also in demand as a trainer, helping photographers to understand both the shooting and editing sides of portraiture. 

We discuss the attraction that the fine art style has for Martina and what she does to make customers’ sessions a powerful, memorable experience. Martina shares how she is adapting her business to the changing economic climate to find new applications for her skills rather than cutting prices. This open and frank conversation reveals that photographers at all levels have similar challenges for their businesses and that there are strategies that you can use to keep afloat and have a thriving business that lasts.

Martina Wärenfeldt fine art portrait of lady with violin
"Buttercup" - fine art portrait by Martina Wärenfeldt
Lady with pearls in dark dress

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All images © Martina Wärenfeldt

Audio & Transcription © Focused Professional, 2024

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Transcription of Martina Wärenfeldt Interview:

Joe Lenton: Welcome to the Focused Professional podcast. Today, we’re with Martina Wärenfeldt. Hello, Martina! Martina Wärenfeldt: Hello! Joe Lenton: And Martina I’m sure you’ve heard of. She is well known for taking home plenty of trophies, filling up her shelves with lots of pretty objects, glass objects, and other objects that celebrate her many successes. She’s also a very well known and celebrated trainer in photography, known particularly for her fine art. So we’re thrilled to have you on today, Martina. Thank you for coming on. Martina Wärenfeldt: Thank you for having me. I’m so happy to be here. Like I mentioned to you earlier, you know. Don’t want to turn down any possibility that we have to talk about. Our passion. Joe Lenton: Quite. Yeah. We’re all nerds at heart. Really, photographers. Martina Wärenfeldt: Absolutely. Joe Lenton: So you’ve just come back from Vegas, and of course, with a few more pretty things to put on the mantelpiece. So tell us a little bit about that. What did you win in Vegas? Martina Wärenfeldt: Well, Vegas was a big surprise this year was pretty cool. I came there quite relax. So this is the first time that I actually had speaking engagements. And that’s been a a goal of mine, an intern especially internal goal, that I was like dreamt of being one of those speakers cause when I came there many years ago, for the first time I didn’t know anybody about it. I didn’t know the industry that well and I was just utterly alone, walking down the hallways, taking classes from big names and getting to know the industry, and also started my competition in Vegas. Joe Lenton: Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: The whole route of competing. So WPPI has a very, very special place in my heart, I, you know, got lots of long time, friends coming from going over there. So this year I was so focused on my speaking engagements, and I was so thrilled. And also when I entered the competition cause. They redid the whole competition for this. Joe Lenton: Oh, yes. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: They’ve been going through some reorganization, and when I entered it in October I’ve had some personal issues. It was. I was not in a good space. And I I was really not feeling encouraged. And I was like, Oh, yeah, well, I cannot not enter. So I gotta throw something in there, and and I pulled a couple of you know things that I believed in, and I made it to the finals with 2 images. One was quite strong, the other one. Okay, not so much but the one that was strong. I still I because I’ve been competing with that image a couple of times before. Joe Lenton: Okay. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Throughout the year, both in Sweden and in London, and it got well received. Yes, but I listen in to. It’s not one of those images, cause I’ve had other images where judges rave about it. And this one has been sort of like hit, miss. You know. Yeah. Joe Lenton: Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Good, but it doesn’t really catch on to everybody. So I was not really confident in that image. And but it was okay, though. So that’s what I’m saying, was the biggest surprise, because I was not that in nervous, or I should say. Joe Lenton: Exactly. Martina Wärenfeldt: I was just so much more relaxed this time because my focus was on the speaking engagements and the and the training that I was gonna do there. So when they came to the award, I was like, Oh, it’s okay. You know I’m I’m happy. I’m glad I’m in the finals. That was a big achievement, because they only brought 10 top 10 in each category, made it to the finals. So I was quite happy with that, and I told my friend before the awards. Not, I think I might have a chance at third place. That might be possible, you know, and if I get a third place in Vegas. I am happy. Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. Martina Wärenfeldt: So. That was what I said, and she goes. Are you sure? Cause she’s been seeing me? God’s honest truth? You know I don’t even have butterflies so. And I saw the other images in that category, and it was just they were really good. So when we get to the awards night I achieved my Double Masters degree in Vegas, and before we haven’t really been called up on stage for that. But now they have made trophies for the Double Masters. Joe Lenton: Excellent! Hopefully a nice big one? Martina Wärenfeldt: It was a nice big one! Joe Lenton: Good! Martina Wärenfeldt: I had the opportunity to to walk on stage with my dear friend and colleague, Sarah Edmonds, and we got up there together, hand in hand. It was this beautiful moment, and we got our trophies, and I told her, I says, Yay, this is my only shot of being on stage this Vegas. Only the first place winners go up. You get a trophy for second and third. But you don’t get on stage until you know, first place, and I only had a first place, win in Vegas one time before and that was 2019, so they don’t come around easy. Joe Lenton: No. Martina Wärenfeldt: And so I’m I’m happy that I got this Double Master trophy, and I was like, “yay! I’m bringing home the trophy!” That was like the biggest thing for me. And then the category came on. It was maternity and the category came on. And I sat there, and the third place came up, and that was one of my favourites. And then second place came on, and that was the favourite I had for that category, I thought was gonna win the whole thing. So I was sitting there. Filming it cause I was hoping for third place right, and then, when that came up, I was about to take my camera down and literally reach over to grab my drink cause I was done in my head. And then they said, and the winner is Martina Wärenfeldt, and I go. What?! That was my first.. So I go. What? No! That’s it. I was shaking my head all the way. Up to this day I go. No, no, no! Somebody counted this wrong. It was the weirdest feeling cause, you know, entering so many competitions for so many years. You still have that butterfly. You still have that excitement. You still get “oooo”. But this year I was like, yeah, it’s not gonna happen so. Oh, the shock was! It was so much fun. The shock was so much fun to to experience that you’d be like. Joe Lenton: That’s even better, I think, when it’s like that, rather than when you’re sort of on the edge of your seat all the time wondering “have I got it?” Martina Wärenfeldt: Thinking, this is a good one. Then you get disappointed. But no, this this was a blast. Emotions I felt was a blast. Joe Lenton: I imagine! Martina Wärenfeldt: Really excited. Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, is this when you enter the competitions like this, is this something that you do because you you enjoy that buzz of winning? Is it something you do to help your business? Is it something for yourself to kind of get a feeling for how you, how you’re measuring up. What? What makes you enter these kind of competitions? Martina Wärenfeldt: What a good question! Cause that ha! There has been a journey of reasons. Actually, I started out for actually measurements cause I wanted to do workshops. I wanted to do training. And before I I started that I wanted to sort of measure cause I wasn’t involved in the big photographic communities, the national ones, the international ones. I was a little, you know. Business woman done it for many years, had happy clients down here in my city, and I was happy. But I was like, okay, so if I’m gonna go out on a national scale teaching people about portraiture. How good am I, you know? Do I measure up. Joe Lenton: Yeah, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: That’s when I entered the first time in the Swedish nationals, and I did so good so good. That year I was shocked myself, and then I dared to enter into WPPI the next following year, and I had a few prints hanging in the gallery. So that’s how I got started and it was definitely a buzz. It was definitely an ego thing in the beginning to go. Yay, I’m doing something great. And on a personal note, at the same time we have had some really difficult times. And it’s not hard to to draw the line between me, excelling in my craft as the the the rest of my life was sort of in turmoil, so cause I was really happy at work, and I was sort of feeling successful. And I I just like jumped. It was like my therapy. Yeah. Joe Lenton: Yeah, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: So that’s why I think it would just connect it with me so hard in the beginning, because my life was kind of chaotic at that time. So I felt happy and relaxed and and successful in that area. So that’s why I continued. And then I realized that this could be a path to doing more international workshops, cause I was already teaching locally and nationally at that time. A couple of years I went by  and I did Norway and Finland and stuff like that. But I was like, I love to travel. I love to see new cultures and meet people, and I love to talk about like I said in the beginning the passion. And the portraiture. And I I do bore my clients to death sometimes, because I wanna tell them why I’m doing this and how I’m thinking. And they like, yeah, whatever so for me to to have students who are interested. It’s happiness for me. So I I decided that where I contemplated that winning awards will get my name out there. And so I can have an international audience. So so people will be, Hey, you’re good at what you do. Do you want to come here and talk? And so the last few years it’s been a career. Yeah. Thing. Still excited, though I mean. Joe Lenton: Sure. Martina Wärenfeldt: Nervous, and let’s take on the bus. So so it’s a win-win. But, been a conscious choice to enter, to build upon my sort of competition degree  and having that being the name pushed out. So now it’s working. So now I am. Yeah, you know, gathering international students for online courses and and talking about maybe like just the other day had an editing course online, and this girl in Romania missed the appointment. But we recorded. She’s gonna get it. So I talked to her on the phone and I said, I’m so sorry you missed it. It was a misunderstanding, and then she was like, I’m from Romania. Well, I never been to Romania, and then we start talking, and she goes. Oh, my God! I have several friend photographers who actually follows you as well. And maybe you wanna come to Romania and do a workshop. What do you need? And I go cool. I would love to. And then boom! That wheel is spinning. So it’s working, you know. Joe Lenton: That’s great. Martina Wärenfeldt: Love, that part. Joe Lenton: Yeah, it’s interesting how our careers can evolve like that, and sometimes in directions that we try to engineer. And then sometimes in directions. We had no idea about what was gonna happen. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yep. Joe Lenton: It’s and it’s quite bizarre, isn’t it? Martina Wärenfeldt: It’s bizarre. And that’s one thing that really clicks with my personality. I hate routine. Joe Lenton: I sympathize with you there, absolutely. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: I just want the variety. I want the excitement, the challenges and not all the time. I don’t mind sometimes just going to work and just do normal stuff as well. But I I think it’s keeps me interested, and it keeps me passionate, and it just keeps me happier and such. Joe Lenton: Yeah, I mean, you seem to have a real passion both for your sort of portrait work that you do for clients, but also for for the teaching as well. So you’re passionate about passing on your knowledge and your enthusiasm for for the subject as well is that, have you always sort of thought that you’d like to to go into teaching? Have you always had an urge to kind of share what you learn? Are you somebody who naturally, when you get interested in something you want to tell people about it. Is that how you got into teaching or. Martina Wärenfeldt: I just like to tell people what to do. Joe Lenton: I see. So it’s either you pose like that. Stand like that or no. Stick your camera here, put the lights there. Yep, okay. Pure bossiness. Fair enough. Martina Wärenfeldt: Sheer bossiness. I don’t. I don’t know. I never thought of myself. I wasn’t. I wasn’t a good student, for example, I was a bit obstinate. I was that, you know rules are made to be broken kind of a student. Joe Lenton: So, what happens if someone does that in one of your workshops, then can you cope Martina Wärenfeldt: I encourage it. Joe Lenton: Excellent. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yes, tell them all the time. I think my father was sort of a natural I wouldn’t say leader, but he was like always if he got involved in something. Then he was in invited into the board, and then suddenly, he was the chairman, you know, cause he was engaging as a person and I think that is one of the things I inherit from him. I mean, I’m engaging as a person I am engaging with my clients, and I am engaging with trainers and like, I said, I’m passionate at what I do and I enjoy to see that little light bulb goes off, and I’ll take in a lot of courses. And I sometimes I’ve sat in with it’s huge star photographers and very talented and very good craftsmen, but then I also been overwhelmed because it’s so technical and that they’ve been so perfect, so to speak. You know you sort of get intimidated, and and you feel like insecure, and you lose a little bit of self confidence sometimes when you go to classes. So what I think that I really enjoy doing is just bringing some. Losing some of their pretentiousness and giving them my horror stories about me screwing up, and I’m just showing that everything we can fail at this. And I’m just. I’m not even. I’m not even good at technical terms, you know. So I’ll be literally like, you know, that little button, this sort of turns and twist, and you know that’s the one you’re gonna use. And they’re looking to go. Thank God! Another one like me, you know and sometimes I  have a I have a colleague of mine here in Sweden, and she lives just outside the city, and we are, for this is the third third year in a row. We are doing a combined workshop for a couple of days and she, yeah, she does a lot of fairy fairy tale kind of portraits out in the forest, and I do my fine art. We usually add a castle, or we rent like a mansion, and I do my fine art portraits inside, and then the group goes outside with her in the woods in the forest. So it’s a perfect combination. But she’s so technical she’s so good at all the words and the right terms. So when I’m standing there having my lecture and I look her. I go, Maria. The she goes. The name is Blah, and I go. Thank you, Maria Joe Lenton: She’s kind of a walking textbook for you. Martina Wärenfeldt: She is. And I’m doing my Photoshop, and I’m going I keep forgetting. I just did the night I keep forgetting. Oh, yeah, that’s right. This is the see. I already forgot it. I don’t even remember what that was. The little band aid. Joe Lenton: Oh, yeah, the healing brush. Martina Wärenfeldt: Thank you. That’s one I always forget and I have to sort of hover over it with my first healing brush tool. And I think that what I enjoy about teaching is when I can see people looking at me going. Oh, my God, that’s so funny. You’re like me. And I’ve had a couple of those throughout the years when I realized that those big photographer names aren’t perfect and that gave me the confidence and the courage to go out there and tell people I’m not perfect. I can do this really well. Joe Lenton: Absolutely, and I think it’s giving people the courage to try things in workshops as well. I mean when I started doing some group workshops myself I had people coming who were used to going to very big workshops, lots and lots of people where the person would essentially set something up, and then everybody else would join a queue, go through, take a photo and sit down. And that was basically it. So I said to them, right, okay, I’m going to show you this. So I would demonstrate the lighting. And then I was really mean. I changed all the settings and all the lights. I moved the lights around the room and I said, “right now it’s your turn.” Martina Wärenfeldt: What a great way to learn, though. Joe Lenton: Like. Oh, I was like you have been paying attention, haven’t you Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. That’s kind of evil, but good. Joe Lenton: And that way. I knew when they left that they could actually do it. Not just have a picture of it on their camera going? Oh, yeah, I took a picture with so-and-so’s lighting setup. And people are not used to working like that. They’re not used to instructors, necessarily really challenging them. I mean, you get some great instructors at some international conventions, but all too often on sort of the, you know, smaller local levels it’s just someone who’s got something to vaguely work. And then they just show everyone else, and they repeat it. And that’s it. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, yeah. That’s a good way to do it. I might steal that method a little bit, Joe. I have an upcoming workshop in in both Finland  and Oslo. And I, for example, Norway, I’ve been going to once or twice a year for many years now. I love to go to Norway. I have a lot of friends in Norway photographers, and just enjoy coming over there, but it also puts the pressure on me to come up with something new. Cause. I do not want to go over there once or twice a year and repeat myself, so there’s like, Oh, you want to come over here and do a little workshop like we did last year goes sure. Gosh, what I’m going to talk about, what I’m going to talk about, how I’m going to do this differently. Joe Lenton: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Get them to do some of the work like that. Yeah, that’ll that will appeal to your slightly naughty side. I think that you’ll enjoy that. Martina Wärenfeldt:  Yes, absolutely! Thank you for giving me that tip. Joe Lenton: Even if it’s just as you walk away, you turn the power down, or something. Martina Wärenfeldt: Sure! Joe Lenton: Don’t tell them you’ve done it. They take a photo and go. Oh, that doesn’t look right. That kind of problem solving, I think, is is how people learn much more effectively than just okay, if I’m gonna do this picture, I need to be at this setting on my camera. This light goes to that setting. I need that size an umbrella with that kind of you know. It’s so formulaic, then. And you think, if you can understand light, you can understand the principles, you can take great photos with all sorts of things. It doesn’t have to be the latest and the greatest stuff. Martina Wärenfeldt: Which is, which is excellent for me to think about. I really really appreciate you mentioned this right now, because I do tend to feel like. I want to add something to it, because I’m most like you said in the beginning I’m mostly known for my fine art portraiture. And they want me to talk about artistic portraits. And how many ways can I go through this? You know, I wanna add some more elements and and which is good because I keep challenge challenging myself to do something different. But it’s also when it comes to workshops not just talk about colours and props and hand holdings and hand posing, which is my, you know, expertise, but also bringing in another level of understanding like you said about the lights and stuff so good. Joe Lenton: If people can work stuff out, I think that it stays with them for longer. You know it involves a bit more of the brain than just to kind of watch and repeat so it can feel a bit cruel to begin with, especially if they’ve come in a bit dopey, and haven’t paid enough attention. It’s like, Okay, now it’s your go. Oh, what do I do here? But I mean for me. I’ve got a small studio, so I’ve had. I’ve come up with ways of creating the lighting that I want without having the space and the kind of modifiers all the time that I that I want to be able to use. So I’ve got sort of big white sheets of foam core board that I that I use in in place of another light source, because I haven’t got room to put a light there, so I’ll use it to bounce some light from another one. So sometimes one light is doing like 3 jobs. You get quite creative that way. Martina Wärenfeldt: You do, you do? And I I didn’t have a large studio from the beginning, so I had very low ceilings, and I did not, I was not able to, you know, photograph large groups. So I also turned out to, you know, learn Photoshop quite early. Just so I can, you know, stitch together large groups, you know. Whatever. Joe Lenton: Did you get them all sitting down, to begin with, as well? With a low ceiling, no one’s standing up Martina Wärenfeldt: Not really that low. Definitely challenge with the lighting. But we gotta start somewhere, you know to make it work. Joe Lenton: Absolutely yeah. So I mean,  you’ve taught in quite a few countries now. What’s your sort of feeling for the the sort of standard of photography, and for how people, how much people want to learn Martina Wärenfeldt: Well, I think that the learning the interest of learning is definitely there wherever you go in the world. Because people show up to those places because they want to learn. And I think what’s interesting is because online, right now, we have so many possibilities, we, there is anything. And I go online when I have a problem or a photoshop thing that I was like, how do I do that? And then I go to Youtube, I find tutorials. And that’s one way of learning, and it’s out there for anybody. But I think as a community, or when you really interested, when you meet with people, when you’re in a setting where you have live body so to speak and you can, if you bounce off each other energy and ideas and problems comes up just like we just mentioned, and that just gives it another level of learning, and I think that that’s still thriving, and it feels like people are still interested in meeting that way. So that’s one part of it, and as far as the standard of portrait, I think it’s I think it’s good. I think the knowledge once again is out there, and people are learning, and they are interested in it. Then if you look back to way way way before, it’s always going to be those who who levels up, and those who are happy to. I mean, I have colleagues in town that hasn’t really upped their game in I would say, 15 years. There’s no changes. They are still making a decent living. So, but for them it’s not the passion to to grow as an artist. Joe Lenton: Yeah, it’s a bit like, yeah, I mean, you was, you know, you were saying earlier. You get bored with just doing the same thing, just doing the routine, and so on. And you like to be that developing yourself. I suppose that for some people it’s a bit like for me as a commercial photographer. You get some people who love just doing the same thing over and over and over. Because they can shoot quite quickly, and they can make quite a lot of money quite quickly. That sort of thing I just find so boring. Martina Wärenfeldt: But that’s a personality replies Joe Lenton: Exactly. Yeah. So for them, they don’t necessarily always want to keep pushing themselves, and for others like me, I never feel like I’ve learned enough. Martina Wärenfeldt: No, that’s wonderful, because and I tried to say that and explain that sometimes when we are talking about photography, that whatever is in you as a person, and your personality is what’s gonna shape your career. It’s it’s if you find that connection with who you are and how you work. You will be happy because it’s not for everybody to to to find the perfection, or go for perfection, or or chase it, or develop all the time some people comes up to this, they learn the basic skills they get paid for there. And then they’re happy and and they’re not gonna win a worse. They’re not gonna be, you know, coming that way. But they do make a decent living, actually enjoying shooting, you know, with a camera, making portraits, people buying it done. And then we have the other group that are not as sane. Joe Lenton: Can’t think who you’re talking about. Martina Wärenfeldt: That sort of like. I want more more. What can I learn this week? Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. Martina Wärenfeldt: It’s gotta be something we can talk about to somebody I don’t know. Joe Lenton: Maybe we need therapy. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Maybe we need therapy. So yeah, I think I think the levels are, this is as it always has been throughout. It’s like some people are gonna push it. And they gonna reach those level. And we see that. And we think it’s amazing if you go to competitions like in London for SWPP or in Vegas for WPPI and you can see the amount of creativity and the passion that goes into those competition prints, and I am such a fan of print competition, because the print and the final end is that evidence of the craftmanship. Because today, when you have them all the online possibilities, some people are amazing at their Instagram work, and and they put out. And they can be like superstars on Instagram. But if they’re gonna print that file, it might not look as amazing. So for me, the completion of the craftmanship is to actually to make able to make a beautiful print. That’s why I think, print competitions, and the few that are still around are so important. Joe Lenton: Yeah, they have an important role in the industry, in helping people to maintain standards and giving people new ideas and things to aspire to. And I think it’s it’s important that we do maintain those those standards in there. I think there’s a lot of tools that we have in photography now, and they just seem to grow by the day what we can use to create things. And there’s that little bit of a risk that we potentially get lazy and think, Oh, I’ll just fix it afterwards, or Martina Wärenfeldt: Oh, I do that. I’ve become very good at Photoshop, because I’m I’m I’m lazy sometimes. Joe Lenton: Yeah, there is that you have to kind of decide where you want to put the work in. Am I gonna do it in the studio with the light moving it 2 inches to the left, 2 inches to the right. Or am I gonna do it in Photoshop with brushes and things like that. So, you know it’s a choice for your workflow how you want to be, but I think sometimes people do rely a bit too much on hoping that they can fix it afterwards. Martina Wärenfeldt: Oh, of course. And that is definitely one thing that we we really like talking about is, get it right in camera and the things that you can miss sometimes could be a strand of hair, or whatever. That’s okay. But the basics of lights, lightning, skills, lightning, not lightning woo, lightning. Lighting skills, and all of that is really needs to be there. I think like you said, you know, taking care of the standards and and trying to you know, have that as a community. Professional photographers coming up to that standard just for everybody’s sake. Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we’re all offering something something more than a customer would be able to just do themselves. I think. As a professional, that’s kind of our role is to be able to get them something that they can’t do themselves really. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah that’s true. Joe Lenton: So with your fine art sort or portraiture work. You said the you’ve said before that you were kind of inspired by paintings sort of more classical portraiture. What is it about that that appeals to you? Can you sort of describe why that interests you Martina Wärenfeldt: Sure. Well, actually, I wanted I wanted to paint when I was younger for me. I so my mom was a very good like sketch artist, and she can draw very beautiful pictures, and I was inspired by her, and I tried to do it, and I can’t. I have like no talent in my hand. It’s literally I’m pretty much suck at it. And I tried. I’m really good at, you know, drawing eyes and horses heads, that’s it. That’s where it stopped. But no. So for me. That wasn’t a basic interest. And then I’m just thinking that I’m I’m I always enjoyed beauty and it can be literally anything. It can be beauty of a small, tiny flower in the forest. It can be beauty of late night sky. I that’s something that it’s pleasing, and I I think I take it to heart. It can be a beautiful person personality wise. It can be outs, you know, like a face that’s beautiful, or hair that’s beautiful. I tend to stop and tell. But oh, my God, your hair is amazing. I just tend to pay attention to the beauty that is around and looking at old masters paintings. I am not fond of those who are a little bit more grotesque and there are maybe evoking emotions that people go, “Oh, this is so strong and powerful”, and I go, ugh, and then I go. I look at this. When when you’re at this huge museums and you have the sculptures. Nike? Nike, is that in the Louvre the the big bust with I think it’s Nike that statue is called, but they have made this fabric in in marm, in, in, in what do you call it? Joe Lenton: Marble. Martina Wärenfeldt: Marble. Thank you. And you make this fabric looks like it’s flowing. And you stand there going so beautiful. How do they do that? Where you get the big paintings, and you can see the brush strokes. So yeah, I think it’s an awe for the talent of people creating that from what they had possible for them. And also it’s just so pleasing. It is just something I can just rest in. So yeah, I think that’s where the inspiration comes from. Joe Lenton: So you like images that you that you feel that you feel comfortable sitting with. Then so something dark, like a Caravaggio, or something like that where? Yeah, you’re not. Not so not so much your thing. Martina Wärenfeldt: No, I don’t. There’s a picture. I see  how an old man is like literally biting some other heads off. I don’t know. That’s just something that came up now. I was like, No, no, and that’s that’s a problem for me. Sometimes when it comes to competition. Joe Lenton: Yeah, I can imagine, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Because I talked to a lot of people that some some dear colleagues of mine that are amazing at storytelling like, Take Hanna Neret is amazing at storytelling. And and she just and Kelly Kelly Brown they have that they can tap into emotions that people when they see the image they go. Oh, man, I remember Kelly did an image a few years back that I was like, why didn’t I come up with that when she had her. You know she has Boxers, and she had one other dog, and laying on. There’s a 2 dog pillows, and one of her dogs is laying on one pillow, looking over to the other pillow, where there was a urn. An urn, so there was no dog there. It was an urn, and I go. It is such a simple idea. It’s beautifully executed, and I go. Why can’t I find it? The darkness, and so I feel like I can make pretty pictures, you know. Beautiful flowers. Joe Lenton: Oh, well, we need, we need some of that, I think. Yeah, I mean, I think my default tends to be towards the darker side. I think. Martina Wärenfeldt: We need everything. Joe Lenton: We need a bit of both. And yeah, again, it’s it’s coming through your personality. It’s your the photography, or whatever art form is an extension of yourself. It’s expressing yourself, your own view of something, so that should be different to somebody else’s it shouldn’t be identical. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, that’s true. I’m not saying I’m I’m not happy where I’m at. I’m just saying that there is, there is definitely room for improvement. I just need to dip into my darker side. Joe Lenton: Okay! Fair enough. Yeah. So when you’re shooting, you know, members of the public, I suppose a darker side doesn’t really tend to come into it so much. Then they tend to want to look and bit more pretty, anyway. But yeah, so when you’re when you’re shooting sort of members of the public, for, like a fine art portrait you very much talk about on your website, about making it an experience for them. And I think that that’s something, especially when portrait photographers are starting out that they can kind of forget that it’s not just about the picture, you know. It’s about more than that. So what sort of what sort of things do you? Suggest that portrait photographers can do, and what sort of things do you like to do to make it more of an experience rather than just all about getting a photo? Martina Wärenfeldt: That is definitely one thing that I care a lot about, and I think it comes down to connection and to listen and to hear what your clients want and need. The type of person they are, and just connect with that without losing yourself as an artist, because it’s not a. It’s not a matter of just doing whatever the client wants, because there is. This is a collaboration. The best of collaboration is like when we meet. They say what they want and what they coming from, and and I’ve had clients talking about their journey. If they’ve been through something awful or some trauma, and then they come out. They would. They want to celebrate this with images? Then boom! We have that connection, and and I need to tap into what can make them really enjoy this experience. And then you have some people that is like a tough cookie. And she’s like, “yeah, I just got divorced. I’m feeling hot,” you know “I’m in the best shape I am. And I’m just gonna rock this. I’m gonna make some sexy pictures.” Then you’re in that. And then I connect with that mode. So that mood and I’ll just go with that, and we have fun. And we ‘re upbeat we play some rock and roll music in the studio, and then other times you need to be soothing. And so I think I am pretty adaptable in my personality to whoever is in the room, and make sure I connect with them on whatever level they’re at, and then I’ll create something that we both have agreed on. This is what they wanna aim for. So the professionalism is there, but also the personal connection. And just yesterday, yeah, I think it was, what day is it, today? Yesterday I had a a very beautiful experience. We both were crying literally. Both at the reveal and in the beginning of the session cause I did a really tight. It was a personal branding business head shots where she needed multiple images. And when I do this I have a consultation first, and then they come in. I have a hair and makeup artist, and we, you know, make them feel beautiful, and we make sure they’re happy. And then we have several different clothing changes, and then I do boom straight, raw out of the camera, reveal session and ordering session. And when she had decided on her final images. And I’ve already done the consultation where I looked at her website. And we planned this to suit her business needs. And when she had decided on that final image, and I said, This is so beautiful, this is. And she was like this is, gonna be perfect for this and this page when I talk about this. And I can feel tears and I go. You know what this is my “why.” This is what because this not gonna make me famous. I’m not gonna bring awards on these images. But I see somebody sitting there being so happy, and she was quite insecure, cause she’s like gained a lot of weight, and she wasn’t really in a place to show us. Don’t worry about it. I’ll make sure you look the best fabulous you, whatever she sat, there she goes. You made me feel so comfortable. You made me feel really beautiful today, and these are gonna be magic for my website. I’m so happy. I made I took this decision. Tears in my eyes, tears in her eyes. And I go,  “This is it. This is why I do this. No awards, no fame, you know, but… Joe Lenton: It’s just something totally different to that, isn’t it? It’s a special connection that you get in that way. And knowing that you’ve made a difference for for somebody through doing that. And I think that sometimes. Okay, if you’re the sort of person who is entirely about money, and everything you do is all about earning money. Then you might approach it slightly differently. But I think that there’s really a place for ditching the formulae and really thinking about serving the client, especially when you’re working in a very personal way like this with portraits. So instead of just saying, Oh, yeah, I make it an experience by giving them a glass of wine and offering them a piece of cake afterwards. Martina Wärenfeldt: I’ll do that too! But yeah, on certain, you know, portraits we do have a glass of wine and some snacks, but there’s more to it. Joe Lenton: Yeah, that is, that is a thing to offer, but that that is not the experience. You know. It’s the connection with the person around it, and it’s you serving their needs as as a person when they’re coming in needing one particular type of photo, or they’re in a different place, and they needed a photo to help them come out of that place. All that sort of thing is far more effective and will get them coming back, much more so than a piece of cake and a glass of wine will. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, absolutely. And make sure that we have. And I have a stylist that also are in tuned with with that can adapt a little bit to the situation, cause if if she wasn’t as smart, you know, and and flexible cause she can meet all types of people, and I can hear her cause. It’s not always. I’m standing right next to her as she’s doing her makeup and I can hear her. How can she connect and how she can change the topics and talk to them. She’s also part of the business and the part of the experience. And many, many times my clients that call me or email me, or do an Instagram post about the situation where they mentioned me and my stylist. You and your style is yelling made me feel so special and it was such so much fun to work with the both of you. Now, isn’t that beautiful? Joe Lenton: Absolutely. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: That we are a team at that time, I mean she does only work for me when I have. I bring her in on commission, you know when I have a job. So. But we still such a team, and people are really enjoying the work. The experience with us both laughing, crying, talking about deep stuff, opening up. You know, if it’s you know my, my stylist. Her daughter has autism and and she she has no problem. Yeah, I know I have a problem my daughter has, and you know. And then suddenly, you go deeper than just doing hair and makeup. And that’s a part of the experience you know, for some people. Joe Lenton: Yeah, absolutely. It’s being able to do the right thing for the right person, really, rather than just forcing everybody through the same way of doing it. I think what I sometimes find disappointing is that people want to find a quick way, and so you read the word “hack” around a lot these days. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah. Joe Lenton: Got the latest photography hack for making your business generate x 1,000 pounds a month, and you think stop looking for shortcuts and start connecting, you know, start finding what you’re passionate about and connect, you know, connect with your clients in that sort of way. Don’t just copy someone else’s template all the time. It might work a bit, but. Martina Wärenfeldt: I know and and I think we’re all fighting within ourselves about this whole social media must. And you have to market yourself. You have to do this. I’ve I’ve been going through a frustrating period that I feel like my engagements, and I know it’s this is like that for so many photographers right now that the engagement has really gone down so low. And it’s sort of I’m not saying I’m not gonna be on social media. Yes, I am. I am reaching clients and and students, and it’s out there. It’s a part of my marketing. But I decided a couple of months ago a few months ago that oh, my God! I’m just gonna push myself into networking, being out there talking about my work, bringing me to the table, not just through a phone. But also be out there. So I know if I’m out at a business situation where I have at a company, and I meet somebody, and I can sense, or whatever they said. What else do you do? Oh, I’d be like, oh, I do this, and I do that sound like a working commercial for myself, and it has actually generated a bit more right now than the social media has for me. Joe Lenton: Cause. It’s, you know, looking at like your Instagram, you’ve got sort of 15,000 followers on there. Roughly like that, and people can sometimes assume. Oh, you’ve got great numbers like that. Well, you must be getting loads of inquiries through there. Does it generate a lot of business for you? Martina Wärenfeldt: It is like, I said, I think it goes in waves. A year ago I was last spring. I was fully booked. I had about 2, sometimes 3 fine art portraits a week.  Almost burnt out. I mean, it was just so crazy. It was because I had a campaign going, and I was posting it on social media, and it blew up. I did not put. I did not do a lot of advertisement. I did not, but it was just giving me fully booked. Now the whole economy changed it. I mean, we all know that 2023 was so weird, and this fall that kind of line of income just like, and I go. Hello! Where did everybody? Where did everybody go? Joe Lenton: Yes! Martina Wärenfeldt: So, and I try to post, and I try to do campaigns, and it didn’t bite. So I was like, what am I? What am I doing wrong? And I knew my product was solid and good, and I know I’m not. I’m not a budget, you know, Deal, but I’m I’m not. It’s not like crazy. It’s not like buying a car or anything. So, no, so I just had to switch my focus and go into what else can I offer and start, you know, pushing my my head shots and my business, and and just being flexible like that. And like, I said choosing where online I started pushing it. I still, I’m still keeping up with the fine art portraits. And I think it’s just like I said, it’s gonna go in waves. And that particular client group right now is struggling. They are struggling with their finances. But there is still other groups out there that is available that has, you know, can afford to to invest in me. And so now I’m pushing towards that goal. And and so I think a part of you know, staying in business is being flexible. Joe Lenton: Absolutely. I think you know, people can look at you and they and they can say that you’ve been very focused to get where you are, with the sort of level of your work you’ve but you’re not focused to the point that you’re not flexible. You’ve you’ve got both in there. You’ve got that focus that enables you to achieve excellence. But you’ve got the flexibility that enables your business to survive the peaks and the troughs to go with to go with the weather of the business, if you like, of the economy and you know you need a little bit of both, don’t you? That kind of resilience and persistence? But at the same time thinking, Okay, there’s no point banging my head against a brick wall here we need to just shift direction. Martina Wärenfeldt: Right and and like I’ve been in business for 27 years. I’m I’m an Oldie in this business and I’ve been through a lot of things in business, and I also never had only one niche cause going back to that. I don’t love routines thing. So, I’ve always had a corporate side of portraits, and then I had the private side of portraits, and they have been working beautifully combined. And right now, the way that life is and the world economics that the business side right now it’s more profitable for me to, you know jump in. I still have a few portrait clients coming in doing fine art portraits is not as much, and I am not gonna lower my prices to suit the economy for that type of images I’m doing, because I know that they are worthy of the price tag that’s on it. So I’m just waiting for the clients to find me or pushing that out, you know, in social media. That’s not where my heaviest attention is right now. It’s still there, but I’m spending my time and money to push for the head shots and the the personal branding part of my business which I enjoy so much like. I said the client I had yesterday. It was such a beautiful, you know, shoot. Joe Lenton: Yeah, I think there’s another important lesson there for people who are thinking of moving more towards a higher end business rather than a budget one is high end businesses. If you think of sports cars and things like that, if there’s a little dip in the economy, they don’t suddenly rush to do their cars at half price or something. Martina Wärenfeldt: No. No. No. Joe Lenton: You know, but so many photographers, it’s like, “Oh, I’m losing. I’m losing the number of customers I’ve got at the moment. I’d better do a deal.” Yeah, and that can actually end up lowering the perceived value of what you’re doing rather than pivoting and offering a slightly different product instead. Something which can be done cheaper because it’s a different product, because it doesn’t entail all the things that the other one does. So yeah, rather than going. Oh, oh, panic. Quick. Let’s have a 30% off sale or something. Martina Wärenfeldt: We all feel the panic, though, I have to say that. I’m not saying that I’m above feeling the panic. Oh, my God! There’s so many emotions going on, and you feel worthless and useless, and you have no confidence and go “what’s wrong with me?” Joe Lenton: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: And then you go wait a minute and like snap out of it. What can I do? And just like you said offering something different. So, I’ve been talking about this for quite some time right now, but I’m like comparing it to the design and brand. Let’s take Ralph Lauren, which is a big design and brand, and cost a lot but you know they have their Lauren by Ralph Lauren, which is a mid range still a little bit of an investment, but I mean I have a purse, Lauren, Ralph Lauren, you know I can afford it if I want to invest a little bit in a nice purse. So that’s what I thought, you know. And so that’s what I’ve done at keeping my prices for my fine art portraits that experience. But if you want to do portraits, you can do a classic portraits which I always offered. But now I’m pushing it a little bit more. So you do a classical portrait, and if you interest in the fine art look, we can still talk about the clothing you wear, how I light it, what kind of background have? And then, if you want me to do the fine art editing you, just, I’ll just upsell that a little bit when it comes to the boxes. Joe Lenton: Yeah. And it’s it’s it’s again. It’s small variations on a skill set where you’re already very strong. Sometimes people think, Oh, my portrait studio is not doing so great. What will I do? Oh, products! That’s a totally different thing. Yeah, it’s like, Yeah, I’ll jump from products as, Oh, that’s not doing so well. Oh, what shall I do? Oh, weddings, you know. Martina Wärenfeldt: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Joe Lenton: You know, people jump a long way sometimes you only need to just move a small distance and just slightly. Martina Wärenfeldt: Tweak it a little bit and see and find new ways of how you market. And like I said, I’ve been the networking thing I mean. I always love to talk about my photography, but I have to say that being kind of comfortable staying home at night, not going out there whenever I had an invitation. Go, naah. Now? I’m a little bit more on my toes, and I go. Sure I’ll be there. How come I show up, and I’m I’m having my business hat on, and I go. Hey? What do you do? Well, you know, and then I boom and So that was for me. A shift of mindset, and how I market. Yes, I’m still on Instagram. Yes, I’m on Linkedin, and I’m on Facebook. But the networking thing has now for me grown much more than it had a year a year and a half ago. Joe Lenton: Yeah, it’s it’s finding the right channels. And these things do change trends. Change. People might be with one form of social media for a few years, and then the trend changes, and then they go somewhere else. And it’s it’s understanding where your your client base are as well, isn’t it? Because, you’re likely to be drawing from people who are within a reasonably easy reach of your studio. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah. Yeah. Joe Lenton: You might have some people who’ll travel a long way. But you’re not going to expect to the majority of your clients to becoming a big distance. So whereas if you’re doing something like I do with products, a lot of the time, I don’t even see the client face to face. I get products sent in the post, you know. Martina Wärenfeldt: There you go. Yeah. Joe Lenton: Quite often. So I don’t advertise or network so much locally, because with the small businesses I’m not really the right solution for them. Martina Wärenfeldt: Right, right. Joe Lenton: So I’m looking at advertising more broadly and further around the UK, and also for people from outside the UK. Because that’s my market. And I think as well people, when you’re thinking about what channels you’re going to use when you do social media, you cannot do all of them. It’s just too much. Yeah, you can’t go to all of the networking meetings that are around, and so on and so forth. It’s choosing ones where you connect with it. It’s choosing ones where you can express your your business, your personality, to others. I think. Martina Wärenfeldt: Absolutely. And for me, the like, last spring, when I was so booked with my fine art portraits, I did actually have people coming long way, but it’s not sweet and long ways, like 5 h drive. That’s a long way for us. But that has also gone down a little bit right now. So me shifting a little bit on how I do things. One of the things that I’m I just before I went to Vegas, lifted it in social media, but I haven’t pushed it through. I need to be more consistent in, and when I come up with some new idea. Sometimes I go. Oh, this is a great new idea. Then I post about it once, and I go, and I don’t get the engagement. I think I deserve and then I go, “Oh, didn’t work.” And just the other day I was I was listening to some marketing tips, and I go. You need to be consistent. I go. Hmm, yeah, not so good at that. No, that need that. That’s something I need to. So I’m going to push out that I can actually go to my clients but I’m gonna make that super exclusive. And they’re gonna have to buy a package. That is quite an investment. But there is still people who would might jump onto that. And I’m willing to give it a try, because if I get that amount of investment I don’t mind getting in my car and take a day or so on driving, you know, back and forth whatever. Go up one day, shoot one day and then stay over and go back. That that’s fine. That’d be a part of the investment and and just to meet those possible clients that are that has the the money these days, and that also you know, are interested and and values what I do. Joe Lenton: Yeah, ex, exactly. I mean, I I had somebody see that I’d done a photo shoot for like a luxury. Self catering windmill, a holiday home, and they they were doing up a windmill themselves in a  part of the country, and it was like that we drove over there. We stayed. We did a shoot over a couple of days, and then and then came back. Sometimes clients want to do that. They want to. They want to travel. They want that. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I usually I used to sell them the experience that they can come to my house and we have a like a Michelin Star restaurant in our town. And I was like, Oh, have you heard about this restaurant, this hotel? And I go? No, and I go. Yeah, you can make it a weekend. You can stay over. And some people just actually get into that. Now you’re gonna have to follow me because I forgot to to take my plug… Joe Lenton: Oh, you’re running out of batteries. Martina Wärenfeldt: I’m running out of battery so join me for a  tour in the house, and like once again how we are not perfect. Yay! Sorry. Joe Lenton: That’s fine. Yeah, we when you were talking about with a with a Instagram or other social media when you post an image on there, and you don’t get that kind of response. Yeah, you have that enthusiasm. You think I’ve got a great idea. I’ve got a great image. You put it out there, and you’re going through the feed to see if you’ve got any likes or whatever. Next to it, somebody’s posted an image of their cat, and there’s like 100 likes on there, and people go. Oh, this is amazing. This is fantastic, and you’ve got like 3, and you go. Oh, why did I bother? But yes, it is that consistency. And I think there’s also the, there is also the fact that people do get kind of used to seeing the sort of things that that we produce, and they’re not always going to be quite so engaged as we’d like them to be, because it’s like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know she does that, or we know he does that kind of thing, and people don’t always click the button. Unfortunately. And as a professional photographer, when you see some of the pictures that get shared and likes and everything on there you can say “it’s not fair!!” Martina Wärenfeldt: I know, and and I think it’s so important that you do not compare yourself too much to others, because it’s always going to be somebody who who does it like we say, better or more successful. But if you can just look at your own stuff and it’s hard it doesn’t come naturally, because naturally we do compare ourselves. But I think if you’re conscious about that behaviour, that it’s gonna make you a little bit happier as a person if you do not engage in “Oh, my gosh! She’s doing this” and just look at other people so, and get inspired, because oh, you know that’s a cool way to do it. Maybe I can…, but not comparing to where, as you put yourself down, is, I think, way too many people do that. Joe Lenton: Absolutely. Yeah. If you hang your self esteem on these things and things like social media, it can be very bad for your mental health and. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah. Joe Lenton: You can keep going back thinking, have I had another like yet? And yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: No, no. Joe Lenton: Not a good place to be. Martina Wärenfeldt: No. Joe Lenton: No, that sort of thing doesn’t help you to run a business. Well, you do the the social media cause. It’s part of your marketing. That you? That’s fine. But if you start to get too connected to it with your own feelings of self worth, and you’re on a slippery slope. I think, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s not good for anyone. Joe Lenton: No, no, absolutely not. So, I mean when you’re when you’re doing your training, that you’ve got sort of training other photographers. And do you you doing online and in person, aren’t you? I think due to some classes on online? Yeah, so what have you got coming up in the next sort of few months that you could tell people about where they might be able to either meet you for a one, a personal training. Or see you online, what sort of things have you got coming up. Martina Wärenfeldt: Well, I have like I mentioned, there is a workshop in Finland. If you’re anywhere close to Finland next month connect with me on social media that works great in that area. And that is a fine art workshop. So it’s gonna be a full day models and editing a fun fun day, and then I have in Oslo, in Norway in the middle of May. There is gonna be at a a big camera store. I’ve been visiting them before, together with canon and we will do a 3 h workshop first, and then we will do an a lecture like in the evening. So that’s that’s 2 I was. Oh oh, no! I also have with my friend like I mentioned. You know we have at the castle at the end of May. So we’re gonna have like a 2 day workshop where we stay and live. It’s not the castle this time. It’s like a mansion. The nice Joe Lenton: Only a mansion, not a castle Martina Wärenfeldt: We skipped the castle this year. This is a beautiful place, and we gonna be hanging out, and we have a couple of spots still available for that one. And that’s amazing. If we get international people coming we will do it in English. If we own Swedes, we do in Swedish. So we are totally flexible that way. We always said that. And so those are the 2 closest one. I’m also coming to Coventry for the Click Live in June. Yeah. So those are the the live speaking engagements that are planned. I don’t think I can squeeze anymore in there now. They should be plenty to to handle. Joe Lenton: They’ll keep you busy. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, definitely. And then online, I do not have anything planned right now as far as group classes. I just finished on Wednesday I had an editing class and other than that, it might pop up something new. I’m not sure but this, if there’s anybody out there who actually wants a one to one. I do that quite often, and it’s really cool, because we do customize that. Whatever need people have, and sometimes I edit my stuff just to get them hooked on the basics and inspired. But I also have more evolved photographers that wants me to take their images and I work on them, and I tell them this is what I would do with this image, and so on. And and that’s pretty awesome. I can do one on one workshops in the studio. I had this Swedish photographer amazing woman! She lives in Montana, but she has family a couple of hours away from me where I live. So last, about a year and a half ago, she was on vacationing in Sweden. She called up, and we set up her on a one to one day workshop all about her bringing in models. She told me what she wanted to learn more about. We had a business part of it, price list part of it, and then we did the shooting and editing. I was just so great, so all of that. I’m always open to listen in and hear what people need, and then we’ll talk what kind of package we can make. Joe Lenton: Hmm, excellent. Yeah. You know. One thing I quite often like to ask my guests is if they could photograph anywhere or anyone, and what would it be? But it sounds like you’ve already got some dream locations for those castles and mansions, you know. It sounds like you’ve done it already. Martina Wärenfeldt: You know. Sometimes locations can be intimidating, too. I have to say that that. There’s one castle that we’ve been a couple years, and it’s like that. The the interior is quite challenging. It’s kind of dark castles where you’d be like where am I gonna get that kind of feeling? So locations? I’m not so sure I’m more like we sometimes, when you see these on Instagram, these abandoned buildings. Joe Lenton: Oh, yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: Covered like with greenery, and those get my juices flowing, you know, it’s like, Wow. And for as far as people goes it’s kind of hard. I’m a big fan of Dolly Parton. That would be great to do a fine art shoot with Dolly Parton. She’s awesome. Joe Lenton: Dolly Parton in an abandoned warehouse. There you go. Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, with with a fine art kind of a feel like a different outfits, and and making her like a painting that would be cool. Joe Lenton: That would be quite a project, wouldn’t it? Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, I know. Joe Lenton: Excellent. So when do we have? When’s that happening then? Martina Wärenfeldt: Yeah, I know. Just gotta find her people to talk to my people, and then we’ll work it out. Joe Lenton: Excellent. Yeah. Martina Wärenfeldt: And hmm. Joe Lenton: So where can people keep up with your work and keep an eye out for the Dolly Parton photo? Martina Wärenfeldt: There you go. Yeah, well, I am. I’m on Instagram: Martina, underlined, Wärenfeldt with the W. And I’m on Linkedin. Martina Wärenfeldt. Facebook is mostly Swedish, but it’s the same there. Martina Wärenfeldt. I think it’s actually my studio name on there, M. Studio. But if you go, for this is my last name is so not very common if you go searching for Martina and if you put 2 dots over the A, we’ll definitely find a lot of places. I kept the 2 dots. When I rebuilt my logo. Yeah, if Häagen-Dazs can so can I? Joe Lenton: Absolutely lovely comparison there, right? Martina Wärenfeldt: I know Häagen-Dazs kept their 2 dots over the A. So is Martina Wärenfeldt. Joe Lenton: Brilliant love it. Thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast today. Martina, we’ve really appreciated having you on. Martina Wärenfeldt: It’s been so much fun, Joe. I really. I’m so happy you asked, and I’m just glad to be here. Joe Lenton: Thank you very much and thank you all for listening to the Focused Professional. Podcast.

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